"I've got to find that fire that defined me once so well." -GOOD RIDDANCE

Wednesday, January 17, 2007

biting off more than i can chew

in a recent post on john & ang's blog, the discussion of baptism came up, and it's role in salvation.

coming out of that discussion, i felt an urge to bring up the always contentious idea of hell that christians subscribe to. the question was asked by jordan whether someone who was never baptized, never went to church, and never takes communion will go to hell. it got me thinking about our (our being the church) view on hell, and the fact that most people would answer yes to that question.

i don't have an easy answer. or even an answer for that matter...
but i do think that the churches response to this very valid question and others like it are often lacking in substance and critical thought. too often, we write it off as "God is a just God, and cannot be with sin". while that may make sense to someone who is a christian (although it still leaves me wanting), i don't think we can leave it at that. it's a strange idea of justice, to think that God will send some to eternal torment forever for not believing in Jesus, or not subscribing to a certain set of beliefs. and what purpose does it serve for God? where is the good news in that? how do we respond to people who can't reconcile the belief of a loving and compassionate God with this picture that the church and Christians have painted for them?

all that being said, i am still wrestling with this idea. i don't want to be written off as some left side liberal trying to shoot down the doctrine of hell. this isn't liberal or conservative. this isn't left wing or right. this is just an honest question. how do we reconcile our beliefs about hell with a loving and compassionate God?

any takers?

posted by xblairx @ 7:17 PM  

50 Comments:

  • At 8:11 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    ive been wondering the same thing for some time now blair. ill be interested to hear yours and others thoughts...jerms

     

  • At 9:04 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    You should read Romans 2:12-16. I believe that we will be judged on what we know and understand. I think that we are born with a good sense of right and wrong. I believe that those that know little will judged on that. I believe we have a just God. I also believe we have a very inderstanding and loving God. If there is someone out there that has not heard of Christ, baptism, and all that goes with that and they chose right over wrong, I think God will have mercy on them. I also believe that those who know and chose to ignore are in pretty big trouble. The bible says that way is narrow and few will find it. Yes I do believe that there are many going to be going to hell. He gave us the freedom of choice. Now we can choose to obey or we can choose to ignore. It is completely up to us. Anywho. I have babbled enough. Ultimately, I don't know what God will do in each person's case, none of us do. And honestly, all I can really do is, do what I know is right, what the bible has told me and allow God to use me and my life. We will find out when he comes what the deal is.

    Adam and Trinda

     

  • At 9:28 AM , Blogger xblairx said...

    hey trinda,
    thanks for being the first one brave enough to respond and get the conversation going!

    first off, i want this discussion to be respectful, whether you agree with the traditional idea of hell or you hate it, i would ask that everyone question eachother, but do so in an open posture so that we can have some serious dialogue without mud slinging and resentment. i don't think anyone would do this, but i just wanted to make my wishes clear.

    in response to trinda...

    i also believe we have a just God. i also believe we have a very understanding and loving God. i also believe that if there is someone out there that has not heard of Christ, baptism, and all that goes with that and they chose right over wrong, God will have mercy on them. great points. i couldn't have said it any better.

    but i do have some questions.
    i read romans 2:12-16, and i understand the point you are trying to make. but nowhere in there does it mention the idea of hell or eternal torment. it does talk at the end of a day when God will judge men's hearts, but does that mean they will go to hell forever? i don't mean to imply you are saying that, i am just asking.

    next, it seems to me that eternal torment is not justice. i know i have only the tiniest bit of understanding about God, but how is it justice for someone to live 80-100 years of life without God, to then be punished for all of eternity? the punishment doesn't fit the crime. if anything, it seems rather unjust to me. and how does that suit God's purposes? how would that benefit him in any way? the word just to describe God doesn't work, or at least makes no sense, if this is the way it is.

    you stated that we will be judged by what we know and understand. i don't know if i agree with that. it even says in that verse that it is not those who hear the law that are declared righteous, but those who obey it and live it. again, you may not have been meaning to imply that is the only way we will be judged, but i do want to keep this conversation going, so let me play devils advocate if you don't mind! (devils advocate...wierd terminology for this discussion)

    also, referring to the narrow gate...do you think he is referring to heaven and hell? nowhere in that verse is that implied. if anything, it seems to me that he is talking about life here and now. the word used is 'destruction', which is often taken to mean hell, but i don't think we can make that jump when we read it in the context of the sermon on the mount. the entire sermon is meant to tell people the best way to live the God-life. so for there to be something in the middle of that talking about the afterlife seems a little out of place to me. i feel that he is saying the broad road and wide gate will lead you in a very unfulfilled destructive lifestyle. whereas the narrow gate, and the lifestyle that he has been describing all throughout this sermon will lead you to a full life, a true life. it makes sense that he says few will find it, because how many of us really live this full life he describes for us? not many. it has often been interpreted to mean there will be few in heaven, which has given christians a self-righteous and superior attitude, and that there will be many unrighteous sinners in hell (i don't think you have this attitude whatsoever, i am just continuing on in my thought process). again, i think that is reading our western christian bias into the text to mean what we have always been told it means. does that make sense? or do you think i am misreading the text?

    thanks for joining the discussion, and please keep responding! say hi to adam for me. once more, please do not write me off as some liberal leftist christian due to my response. i only want to be honest in the questions that i have and hear what others are thinking.

     

  • At 3:18 PM , Blogger dave said...

    this is worth checking out.

     

  • At 3:23 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    A question for you Blair - let's say no hell - what's your alternative? For an athiest of course this is likely just an intellectual exercise, but for you (as a non-leftist radical christian) it would be different perhaps. That leads to question 2 - how about heaven? Is there such a thing? If eternity in hell is too long - then does the same apply to heaven? If hell is too bad is heaven too good? Just wondering - thanks for your questions and thoughts.

     

  • At 5:46 PM , Blogger Jordan said...

    First of all, let's consider the "justice" angle of this: Human beings, as finite creatures, cannot commit infinite sin, and are therefore undeserving of infinite punishment. Sure, one could argue that we're also undeserving of the infinite joy of heaven, but that can be explained in terms of God's mercy (which, by definition, is unjust, but in a good way). Does that mean that infinite punishment, if it is going to occur, has to be explained in terms of the opposite of mercy--i.e., vindictiveness, spitefulness, etc.? And, if so, why worship a spiteful, vindictive God (note: I'm not trying to offend anyone... I'm just taking the idea of Hell to its logical conclusion)?

    But we can take a more introspective angle as well. Would you torture someone for eternity for any reason? I don't know about you, but I'd have trouble torturing (or condoning the torture of) someone for any amount of time, let alone an eternity. Does that make me more merciful than God? Or, does it mean that God, being more merciful than me, would be even more reluctant to torture (or condone the torture of) anyone, no matter how much "sinning" they had done; and, from this doesn't it follow that Hell is incompatible with the sort of God we're talking about?

    And now for the dreaded atheistic angle. ;-) Personally, I think the idea of Hell is best explained as a conversion incentive (along with Heaven). "If you become a Christian, you'll experience eternal bliss; if not, you'll experience eternal torment." If you think of religion as "meme complexes" (memomes?), doesn't it make sense that the ones with conversion incentives are going to be particularly successful? Put another way, won't there be a selection pressure towards high-stake conversion incentives, and do the stakes get any higher than Heaven & Hell? Anyways, I suppose I'm getting a bit off topic now...

     

  • At 8:02 PM , Blogger Jordan said...

    Ok, I've outlined the main part of my position here. My conclusion is that, if God exists, and if he deserves our worship, then he is merciful & benevolent (and, as a consequence, unjust).

     

  • At 9:02 PM , Blogger dave said...

    as I read through the latest comments, something came to mind while I read of God eternally torturing people. I thought, would that be God actively torturing them, or else once they had been banished to hell, would he play no part in it. In other words, when we talk about people being eternally removed from God, could he ever eternally remove them from his heart? Or would he be concious of their suffering for all of eternity? Would that be compatable with his loving nature?

     

  • At 9:41 AM , Blogger John, Angie and the kiddos said...

    Psst. We changed our blog address.

    http://johnandang.blogspot.com/

    Pass it on.

    John and Ang

     

  • At 11:23 AM , Blogger chelsey said...

    blair, you are so left wing and liberal.

     

  • At 12:00 PM , Blogger Brian Charla said...

    None of the following are my original ideas:

    Someone said “hell” is not found in the O.T., only the new. They also said the N.T. writers were heavily influenced by Plato’s take on the topic. This calls into question the inspiration of the Bible, but it makes sense that the writers would be influenced by views, cultural experiences, and the scientific views of the day; even if God is inspiring them.

    Anyway, the few times that Jesus mentions it seems to be a reference to a physical place or experience on earth. Remember his prayer that God’s will be done on earth. Kind of like heaven’s ways being brought to earth because of the actions of it’s inhabitants. We know that it’s inhabitants can likewise bring hell – a weeping and gnashing experience - here too.

    What if no one changes spiritually, emotionally, or internally at death. They just stay the same. But let’s assume God is real and God’s way is true. Here on earth today, someone that is rotten inside, a bigot, rude, or full of hate will obviously feel uncomfortable among goodness. Wouldn’t a bigot feel miserable standing among people from all nations in the afterlife? If I hated goodness, it would be hell to continue surviving for eternity with these same traits while the goodness of God and the restoration of perfect creation was reality.

    Again, not my thoughts. I’m mostly incapable of such things.

    I also typed it while my students were changing and off to gym class. It was a bit rushed.

    Enjoying it,

    Brian

     

  • At 12:28 PM , Blogger xblairx said...

    thanks for all the responses.

    allen.
    thanks for your thoughts. i have alot of respect for you am glad you are part of the discussion. i know what you are trying to say, but i guess i just have trouble as seeing that being worth it to God. i like what you said about hell being the absense of God. if we do subscribe to hell being an actual state of being, that at least makes a little more sense than eternal torture. i guess my thoughts on taking the gospel into all the world is that the good news of Jesus Christ is not simply a message. it is a life lived to the fullest, and our commission is to save the world, not just from sin and lack of knowledge of Jesus, but from poverty, hunger, despair and hurt. i think you'd agree with that, and i'm not saying you don't, but that is where my thoughts take me. so i still see there being a purpose to the great commission in that there is more to it than just conversion.

    tim.
    well, the other alternative that pops into my head is universal salvation for all. i know that is seen as heretical in many christian circles, but if there is no hell, or at least not a literal hell as we have constructed it, there is the possibility that God will save all human beings. as christians, we see ourselves as a forgiven people. but we see it more as God has forgiven us because we are in relationship with him. what if his forgiveness is bigger than that? what if his forgiveness includes other religions, atheists, murderers and even people who hated him in this life. to people trying to live an upright life, that may not seem fair. we always say that "God is love" and that his love is bigger than anything we can imagine. what if it's that big? what if our ideas about hell have constricted our thoughts on how far grace can reach? i know there are some scriptures that may contradict this thought, but there are also many that support it and contradict other ideas about hell. it's really the only alternative to their being a hell that i can think of. and with this case, i think your question about heaven lasting forever is easily answered. if everyone is in heaven, then the eternal aspect no longer is a problem. does that make sense?

    jordan.
    i agree with lots of what you say. those same thoughts are what have brought me to this struggle. and you are right, it has been used as a conversion scare tactic in the past, and in some cases, in the present. i do agree with allen that in the end, i just will never understand God's thought process, and i must accept i can never be on his level of understanding. but i don't believe that makes it wrong to investigate and study and come as close as i can to an understanding of who God is and what's reality about God and what is man made. that may not be relevant to what you said really, but i find it very interesting that i'm a christian, your an atheist, and yet we agree on most things that we discuss. is that even possible?

    dave.
    my best thoughts won't be sufficient to answer your question, but here i go...i don't think God could eternally remove them from his heart. it's the same struggle i have with calvinism. if God is omniscient, then how can he remove them from his heart? it doesn't make sense when take into account other aspects of christian beliefs about God. dave, what i really think you need to do is go back and read wayne grudem's "systematic theology" to get a clear and consice answer to all your questions. sorry everyone else, that is an inside joke. as far as it being compatible with his loving nature, i don't know if it would be or not. is it possible for God to be conscious of their suffering and not have his heart breaking everyday for them? and if it is possible, why doesn't he do something about it? wouldn't that make heaven awesome for us, but a hell for God? wierd question that can take us in some wierd places. i need to think some more on that.

    chelsey.
    vote green party and suck on global warming.


    i really appreciate all of you joining in with me on this debate. it's not my intent to come to a conclusion, because i don't think i'll ever come to a conclusion except that i'll never know for sure. but thanks for joining on this journey with me. keep it coming if you have more to say. john...brian...jeremy...kris...jason...anybody else...i'm looking at you guys to join in. no pressure or anything, but i won't be your friends if you don't.

     

  • At 1:41 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I think there are things that we cannot understand. It is beyond us to comprehend. God gave us the gift of choice, and therefore it is up to us to find the path we are to take. In other words it is up to us to find the truth. I don't know how God will judge us. The point of giving us a choice has been something I have thought about. Why would God give me the choice, even though he know I am going to screw up anyway and he knows what I am going to do. In fact, this for a long time stood in the way of me having a relationship with him, because why?? I have finally decided that it is ok for me to not know. As Allen said, that is faith. I think it is good to question at times, it helps us to find truth, and to know for sure, for ourselves the truth and not just believe what someone else said.

    I do think that the narrow and wide speak of heaven and hell. Do you not think that it speaks of eternal life?? It will be pretty shallow and on the surface if spoke only of our life on earth. I don't think that was who christ was or is. That is what I have always thought and believed about Christs words. As a christian I can honestly say that I am living a full and satisfying life. Do I have troubles, sure do. Is everything all rosy, nope never. My life is rich because I know that when that day comes I will be with Christ because of the relationship I have chosen to have with him now, and until that day I plan to allow Christ to use my life and myself to help a few more find that narrow path.

    It bothers me what Jordan said about God desrving our worship. I think the question should be are we deserving of his love and mercy?? And maybe that is right wing conservative thing to say of me but... He will forgive and forgive, even when he knows we are going to mess up again. Can we say that about ourselves. I know I can't. I am not always willing to forgive others after I have been hurt by them for the 20th time. But God has forgiven me!! And I can't even say how many times, more than I can count. When did faith, eternal life and a meaningful relationaship become about finding a God who deserves our worship?? I think there is a real danger in that thinking.

    I think that if we are actively seeking the truth, I mean actual truth, not a truth to fit what we want, or truth someone told you about...you will find it. It is there and Christ is waiting. It comes down to obedience in alot of ways. I think lots of people want a God that is all good and great and forgiving without consequence. He is not that, hell is the consequence. If my kids get out of line they have consequence, not hell mind you, but I still love them more than anything. It hurts and disappoints me that they make poor choices even when we have given them the tools to make better decisions. Isn't that somewhat parallel to God. I think that his heart will ache for eternity having to set down the consequences, but we made our choices, we are given the tools, and those who haven't had the bible, etc see my last post about what I think. I like what Brian said on John's blog about his daughters. We ask our kids to do things that they won't understand until they are adults and only then can it make sense to them. Lots of us have likely already had those moments where one day we are like..."oh that is why mom did that!!" That was a great analogy. I don't think we will really know until that day. Anyway, I hope this came across the way I mean. If not. Sorry. My thoughts don't always make it into writing just the way I want.

     

  • At 7:58 PM , Blogger dave said...

    I don't think it to be shallow at all if Jesus is talking about this life. He spent most of his life on talking about this life. I think it's really harmful to think that this life is totally insignificant, or is only significant in that it determines where we go when we die. Jesus announced the beginning of his ministry with a promise of freedom for the prisoner, release for the oppressed, sight for the blind, and health for the sick. If we start to act like none of his words about life were serious and literal, and we only take the stuff about the afterlife seriously, and see everything else as secondary, that's dangerous stuff.

    Trinda questioned Jordan's thoughts about whether God deserved our worship, responding that, "He will forgive and forgive, even when he knows we are going to mess up again." I can't speak for Jordan, but I would say that the problem that Jordan and others (maybe me) might have with that statement is the big "IF" that stands, though invisble here, at the end of it. The fact that God's mercy is basically dependant on us performing certain acts in response--some might say "just accepting his grace"--when he knows full well what screw-ups we are, and how few of us would accept him.... I think that would be why someone might start to question the mercy and love.. Yes, his mercy is available to all. But according to most interpretations, it will ultimately only be given to a small number. Should we say that he's surprised by that and wasn't expecting such a low turn-out? Or did he know ahead of time, when writing this story, that so few would accept it? If that wide/narrow roads passage is speaking about eternity, then God knew that most people would reject him. But he still made them. And he made them with the capacity--and the inclination--to ignore or reject him.

     

  • At 7:14 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I personally really do think that alot of Jesus' words were meant to speak more about eternity and how to get there. Look at the beatitudes one example. (matt. 5) No where have I read in the bible where Jesus or anyone else says that here on earth I will be given health, be freed from oppression, or if I go blind I will get my sight back. I firmly in my heart believe that Christ spoke about much of this life as to what we needed to do to confirm where we stand in the end. I believe all of Christs words were very important. I see his words and the bible as a guide for my life. As guide for how I need to live my life here on earth so that I can enjoy an eternal one with Him. I don't understand how all will go down at the end of times..all I need to know is that I believe I have done what is right for my life and I have done what I believe He has wanted me to do.

    I have struggled with the question "why the heck would God create us only to have us turn on him?" if he knows it is going to happen. I guess it is called faith, we need to trust God knows what he is doing. Christ knew who would betray Him when he was here on earth. I think Blair said something about "where is the benefit to God" I don't think that God is doing any of this to benefit him. I believe the big "IF" IS what is going to stand in the way for lots. It has for me in the past. I understand that feeling of questioning and wondering what the heck is the point. It is simple. That is the beauty in his love, that is the beauty in what Christ did for us on the cross, all we need to do is accept and follow and begin to live the life that was put there for us to live. Will we make mistakes along the way, I have no doubt. My past is riddled with them. But I try not to repeat and I go from here, trying to be the best example I can be to others and try to live the life God wants me too. Is it our pride sometimes maybe that prevents us form accepting. Would you do what God asks if it seemed more important?? Think of Namaan (2kings 5) We need to choose obedience and yea, we do need to do certain acts in response to God, because we need to exercise obedience. And we need to do it without much notice if that be the case. He asked us to do certain things and we need to do them and we need to accept his love, it has been given to all and it is there waiting. I don't think it says that a few will be given eternity. Anytime that I have read it says few will find it, so I kinda think it more, few will choose it. No one has kids for them to turn out badly or to choose a life for themsleves that we can hardly bear to stand for them, and yet there are people out there that choose to take that road. I know several people with kids who have choosen a life for themselves that their parents would have prayed they wouldn't choose. And yet they have choosen and it breaks there parents heart. I think God has a purpose for each of our lives and many of us choose not to take it. It comes down to a decision. A decision to obey.

     

  • At 6:24 PM , Blogger Jordan said...

    Allen, two quick questions (sorry that I can't address your other comments, but I've got a full plate right now):

    First, why wouldn't God force his will on Hell-bound sinners in the same way that parents force their will on children who are about to cause themselves irreparable harm? If a loving parent catches his kid with a crack pipe, there is going to be some serious will-forcing, and for good reason.

    Second, why can't people who are in Hell (like you said, whatever that means) choose to repent? i.e., Why do they have to stay there forever?

     

  • At 7:32 AM , Blogger xblairx said...

    i like allen's honesty! it's important for christians to be able to admit that they just don't don't know. like i said before, i haven't got a clue what it will be like when i die, and i hope i don't sound like i do here, but all i know is that i don't know...

    again, thanks for responding trinda. it's cool to chat with you on here since we don't see eachother much. i have to agree with dave about the here and now vs. the afterlife. i won't say that Jesus doesn't talk about the afterlife, but in the context of the sermon on the mount, the here and now is exactly what he talks about the whole way through! a small sidenote, even if you take that specific passage to be about the afterlife, it says the road is broad and leads to destruction. so where in the word "destruction" do we come up with the idea of eternal torment? destruction means an end to something. a termination. a completion. if this is talking about the afterlife, is there a case to be made that when unbelievers die, that's it, they vanish and are destroyed? in fact, there are many other passages in scripture that would support this idea, which i don't have time to go into now.

    i think when Jesus talked about healing the sick, being freed from oppression and giving sight to the blind, he was in every way imaginable talking about life here and now! it is part of our commission as christians to put this into action. it seems to me that your thinking about it in terms of supernatural healing and being freed from oppression in terms of being freed from this life. but what about providing medicine and health care for the sick and poor? what about giving people clean water and a bed to sleep on? what about fighting for the rights of the oppressed across the world? is it not even remotely possible that was what Jesus was talking about? i think it is exactly what Jesus was talking about, and if we only think of these things in terms of getting to heaven for the good stuff, we are missing out on what Jesus was saying. i'm not saying he never talked about heaven. i'm only saying to not forget about the mandate we have here and now.

    i know i won't convince you on this blog, and that's not my intention. i just feel it is important to not miss out on one of the central aspects to Jesus teaching. for myself, if we say that what Jesus taught was only to get us through this life in order to get to the good stuff, this life feels pretty pointless.

     

  • At 7:52 AM , Blogger xblairx said...

    i tried to explain in my post above, but may not have said it the way i wanted to, but one question that comes out of your last post Trinda is that if the bible is only a guide for life, then isn't it at least possible to be misguided as to the kind of life it is leading you on? i am not by any stretch suggesting you are misguided, all i mean to say is that if the bible is a guide, then who holds the answer key?

    also, if God isn't doing any of this to benefit him, then why is our worship of him a central aspect to what most christians believe we are put on earth to do? does that make sense. most would say our purpose on earth is to worship God and live the best life possible. from that viewpoint, wouldn't it suggest God very much stands to benefit from our relationship? we certainly benefit more than he, but i am just trying to make my point. if he desires all to be in heaven, then that is to his benefit. i didn't mean to state that in a "God is selfish" tone. i just sincerely meant, that it is to God's benefit to have as many in heaven as possible, so what purpose would creating a place of eternal torment be to him? does that make sense?

    also, were you implying that maybe those who believe this are finding a truth to fit what they want? just wondering, because if so, i don't think that is a fair statement. i understand why you might feel that way, but it makes just as much sense for someone who believes the opposite to in turn say the same about those holding the traditional view on hell.

    anyway, i hope it doesn't seem like i'm trying to argue with you trinda! i love that your a part of this conversation. my goal is just to raise all the questions and problems i have run across and see what others have to say. so in responding to you, i am not trying to put you down, but simply to keep the discussion going.

     

  • At 7:55 AM , Blogger xblairx said...

    dave,
    i agree with what you say. in fact, it's interesting to me that someone might think it is shallow to focus on the here and now, while i would think it to be shallow to only focus on the afterlife. it's strange how people can read the same things yet get such different meaning from it. i suppose that is the beauty of conversations like this one. you put an eloquence in your writing that mine can't, and so for that, i am grateful for your input!

    blairski

     

  • At 5:49 PM , Blogger John, Angie and the kiddos said...

    One view that has had me chomping late into the night is the Jewish view. This view postulates that the Jews invented Hell as a way to cope with extreme oppression from the Romans. When a super power has taken away all your freedom, religion, freedom of religion and your identity - and you are utterly powerless to do anything about it, few thoughts will give you more comfort then - "those #@# are gonna get what's coming to them." Hell was relief, even therepeutic, for the Jews because it would be torture for the Romans. Quite literally.

    Note: The Book of Revelation is seen by many scholars as just that, 22 chapters of the ultimate Jewish Revenage Fantasy.

    John

     

  • At 6:35 PM , Blogger Jordan said...

    John, that's a very interesting (and, imo, plausible) view. It coheres with the fact that the ancient Hebrews may not even have believed in an afterlife, and, if they did, their conception of it ("sheol") was nothing like the modern Christian's. Heaven and Hell were later inventions.

     

  • At 6:27 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    John and Jordan, your comments make sense when we consider that hell, like we think of it, is taken from N.T. writing. As I said before, these ideas seemed to be birthed in Plato's philosophies and was therefore influenced the culture. Still trying to sort out what that means as far as inspiration of God's word. I guess it is along the same lines as slavery. Culture played a big role, but the metephorical truth behind it is what is important.

    Brian

     

  • At 8:51 AM , Blogger xblairx said...

    brian,
    farther back in one of your posts, you posed the question that what if hell was simply staying who you are after death. for someone filled with bigotry, hatred and deciet, it would be hell to be with the goodness of God for the rest of eternity. that makes much more sense than the common concept held now by many in the church. it just still lacks the taste of truly good news to me. our idea of heaven is that it will be something greater than anything we can ever imagine. we paint pictures like mansions, streets of gold, no tears, and such. does that mean our concept of heaven is a little skewed as well? because if there are people walking around in their own private hell, then how can it be heaven for the rest of us? it just seems that is a good way for Christians to be able to feel better about hell, but it doesn't really make heaven all that great. and if we don't change internally, emotionally or spiritually, then won't there be a lot of people who are in and out of heaven and hell, because i know that i am pretty lukewarm myself. does that make sense?

    john,
    where did you read that from? that is interesting. i have read something similar, except that the view i heard was that the jewish people borrowed the idea from other cultures and religions of the day. there were several similar streams in other cultures to the idea of hell long before the Jews came around. it kind of makes sense that they might borrow something like this as they were held in captivity so often by surrounding superpowers of their day. while they were beaten down and they hoped their oppressors would get what is coming to them, they were also surrounded in this culture that held this view, so it would be easy to pick up on certain aspects of different cultures when that is what you are surrounded with. we see that all the time today. my question would be, if this is the case, then how have we strayed so far from the original intention and meaning of the early Jewish audience?

    charity,
    glad that you are tuning in! feel free to join in the talk at anytime!

     

  • At 2:57 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Blair and whoever else is tuning in,

    Let’s assume that the vast majority of scripture and Jesus' teachings are about life here and now rather than about the afterlife. Just for fun, let's assume that none of Jesus’ teachings were about the afterlife. Now think about a few of them. The wide and narrow would speak about being on track now or not. The hidden treasure is about giving all you have now for the sake of the kingdom. The lost sheep is about Jesus going now to search for those who stray. And, like you say, the good news (healing, giving, caring for, protection, shelter) are all for this world. But looking at a few more, we see Jesus talking about people not being prepared, people being cut to pieces, people being thrown out where there is weeping and gnashing. I still believe Jesus was talking about physical places and consequences that would be experienced here and now, but what does that do to this notion of good news? Do you know what I mean?

    Even if there is no heaven or hell, the message of this life still seems to involve some kind of consequence for living outside the way of God. How can that be so, and it still be good news? Well, maybe that is our next question, what does Jesus mean by “Good News” and how powerful is it.

    Just throwing out thoughts and questions at this point. Not ready for answers yet.

    Brian

     

  • At 7:07 PM , Blogger xblairx said...

    brian,
    this quesiton could take hours to answer if we examine all the verses, so i'll just tackle one you mentioned and point out some things that i notice.

    lets look at the man being thrown out where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. i assume you are talking about Matthew 22. i guess my first thought would be to read the surrounding passages and see what is going on. right before, we have the parable of the tenants, in which the tenants kill the servants and the son of the vineyard owner, in order to take his inheritance. the owner of the vineyard brings a terrible end to the horrible tenants, and will pass it on to others who will do a better job. it says here that the chief priests and pharisees were upset because they knew this was about them. if you go a litle further back, you have the parable of the two sons, in which one son said he would not work for the father, but later changed his mind and went to work. the other son said he would work for his father, but then did not go. here he says that the first son was the one that did what his father wanted. then we come to the wedding banquet. many honored guests are invited, but they do not want to come. so they bring in anyone they can find from the streets. then there is the man without wedding clothes, who the master then has kicked out where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    bear with me, i am getting to my point!

    the reason i tie the other two parables in with this one is that they are all parables about the kingdom of God. one talks about their unbelief while those they consider unworthy believed. the other is saying the kingdom will be given to those who will share in the work of God. the last speaks of them rejecting God's kingdom, and therefore it has been given to others more willing to do the work. these are all parables talking about the rejection of the kingdom of God by the religious establishment of the day. it even tells us that they knew he was speaking about them. in this context, is it not possible to see these parables as very much about that specific time, where the very people who thought they had all the answers were completely missing out on the kingdom right before their eyes? i think it's very possible. if you think about it this way, it even begins to make little sense for it to be talking about the afterlife at all.

    the final section about being kicked out and weeping of gnashing of teeth then is not the point of the parable. as mentioned above, i believe the point was to say that the religious leaders were missing the point. this little tidbit on the end can be seen as supporting that as well. seen in the context i have tried my best to describe, maybe the person being kicked out is someone who was not of the kingdom. it doesn't have to mean they are being kicked out into hell. it simply means they have no part in the work of God's kingdom. the weeping and gnashing of teeth likewise don't necessarily have to be a description of hell, but rather are painting a very extreme picture of the true state of the religious leaders. am i making any sense? are there other verses you are thinking of?

    if i didn't answer your question or misinterpreted it, disregard this long ramble of thoughts and try explaining it again! i know this is just one example, but i have to go, and this is so long that most people won't read it anyway! thanks brian.

     

  • At 7:59 PM , Blogger jerms said...

    dang. you guys are thinking some neat stuff. too bad we cant all meet up for breakfast at simply delicious and hit this up. however, this is probably the next best thing.

    i guess most of what i think has been said by a few of you. but blair, id have to agree with you. i have a harder time believing that God would send someone to 'eternal punishment' rather than just saving everyone. a loving God and eternal punishment dont add up to me. and in my mind things need to add up.
    i also think we will never know the answer, but that doesnt make conversations like this unimportant. anyway. im coming to regina this weekend...want to catch some coffee?
    jerms

     

  • At 8:57 PM , Blogger Ryan said...

    rumor has it Ryan started a blog, weird.

    check it out and pass it on.

    http://rgoodwin21.blogspot.com/

     

  • At 9:50 PM , Blogger dave said...

    blair,
    that last comment of yours was so mclaren. on that note,
    brian, and whoever else is interested,
    I read an awesome book about the kingdom of heaven (normally I wouldn't be interested in the topic, probably, but I loved this). "The Secret Message of Jesus" by Brian McLaren.

    I hate that I'm on a blog, advertising for McLaren... so cliche. But hey, it was an awesome book and dealt extensively with this one tangent of ours here--just what IS the good news?
    Not too long, either.

    On another note, I see in myself a temptation arising. That temptation is this:
    Step 1 - Discuss, envision, and even invent different possibilities for the afterlife or lack thereof.
    Step 2 - Choose the one that sounds best. Make minor adjustments to it as necessary.

    Ultimately, though, we don't get a vote. That frustrates me. Of course, if mainline Christianity (and WCC)is right, and Jesus is coming back any day now (OBVIOUSLY) to judge the living and the dead, seperate the sheep and goats, and send Lazarus to heaven and the rich man who neglected him a full country mile away from Abraham's bosom....then there's always the "protest God" option that some have chosen. "Well, if that's how it is, then let him send me to hell!!"

    I feel like there's a legitimate possibility that there's more to the story than the traditional view, though, or that there's a completely different story... so I'm delighted to be a part of this conversation.

    A big part of why I have a feeling that what most Christians think isn't quite right is the fact that most Christians think it. Really.

    How wrong were the Jews (God's chosen, right?) about the coming of Jesus? Pharisees, Essenes, Sadducees, Zealots, all that stuff, right? They all had their expectations of what Jesus would be and do, and he shamed them. Why shouldn't the same happen to Christianity?

    They were so sure of what they believed, because they had SCRIPTURE to BACK IT UP. Sounds familiar.

    They were so sure of what they believed, because the RELIGIOUS LEADERS and even the GOD-SANCTIONED INSTITUTIONS, bearers of ALL that is RIGHT and TRUE and HOLY confirmed it for them. Sounds familiar.

    Most of them were very, very, wrong.
    Take it for what it's worth.

     

  • At 6:55 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    This is the last thing I am going to put on here, I feel it is in circles.

    A friend pointed out to me, that we look at hell from the "wrong view" I have to agree. This converstaion is looking at heaven and hell through the goggles of..."we deserve heaven and hell is punishment". Romans 2:23 says "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." I think our understanding needs to change. No one deserves heaven and that makes what Christ did for us at the cross a most beautiful thing.

     

  • At 8:31 AM , Blogger xblairx said...

    trinda,
    i don't think anyone here is saying that we deserve heaven. i don't think anyone is trying to be arrogant. because i struggle with the concept of hell as it is today does not mean that i think i deserve heaven. i don't deserve anything. i think that's part of the problem with these discussions. people hold opposing viewpoints and then assume the other believes something they don't. i'm sure i've done it to you at some point in this conversation. i'm sorry if i have. my goal has not been to argue or hurt anyone. but i by no stretch believe i am deserving of heaven. i agree that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and that what Christ did was a beautiful thing. the most beautiful thing i can think of. and your right, our understanding does need to change. i just hope you understand that this discussion isn't to make up beliefs that we like. this is about much more than that. it's an honest attempt to get to know God, and to separate who He really is from what we have created Him to be in the past.

    i hope we aren't just going in circles. this is much more important to me than just an argument. i'd like to believe that this conversation can accomplish something, and not just this conversation, but others like it. thanks for being a part of the conversation and please come join in anytime.

     

  • At 9:59 AM , Blogger Jordan said...

    *sigh* No offense, Trinda, but the kind of Christianity that you've apparently subscribed to is exactly what started me down the path to atheism. You might as well be suggesting that kids who steal cookies deserve to have their hands cut off. Seriously, the moral revulsion you would feel towards the total asymmetry of that response is exactly how I (and a lot of people) feel about your view of Hell--a finite amount of sinning does not warrant an infinite amount of punishment.

    And do you really have such a low opinion of humanity that you think they deserve eternal torment by default? That's... well, frankly, it's disgusting. I wouldn't even condone the eternal suffering of a slug let alone a fellow human being. I better leave it at that, as I don't want to alienate the moderates in this thread...

     

  • At 10:06 AM , Blogger John, Angie and the kiddos said...

    The gospels tell us that the message of Jesus is good news. I think one of you guys already mentioned this.

    I once heard someone say "If its not good news for everyone, its not good news for anyone."

    Let's just say for arguement sake, that statement is true.

    How would that impact our understanding of hell?

    John

    P.S. Re: my Jewish idea. A History of the End of the World. Jonathan Kirsch. The guy does a great job taking us through 2000 years of end times theology and heresy. Blair, you asked how we have strayed from that? My thinking on that is it probably didn't help when Rome took over Christianity in 391ish because now they were the ones in charge. They really had no choice to change the Jewish writings as many of them, esp Revelation that were a polemic against them. Once Rome was in power, they now use these writings as a polemic against their enemies, enemies being anyone who was a threat to their power - like Iraq, I mean, not Iraq, we're talking about Rome, not the US, silly me.

     

  • At 11:06 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I think there may have been some confusion, not sure. Let's assume that there is no such thing as heaven or hell, just life here. Now take the gospel message for all. I agree that the Jesus was largely speaking to the religious people that should know better when he paints some of these more brutal pictures. So... The big question is, does the "Good News" contain consequences for those in or out. Wait, Jesus seems to flip our descriptors of who is in or out. Back to the question, does the "Good News" contain consequences, and therefore, what is the "Good News?"

     

  • At 1:30 PM , Blogger John, Angie and the kiddos said...

    Brian,

    I could, you could, we all could expound for 45 more comments on what it is that truly makes Jesus' news good. I think we should actually. But since I don't have much time I'll just say this. I think what made Jesus news good is the fact that it was and still is ALWAYS. Eternal.

    Jesus' news is good for every person, culture, religion and context. Why? Because pure love, true humility, genuine self sacrifice and caring compassion never get old, never become irrelevant, never cease to touch and never die.

    Name one thing in our culture, in our time that is better? Temporal news can never be good because it always has a life span. Ipods, Nintendo Wiis, Money, Power, fame, fortune even Stanley Cups will one day mean nothing. In many cultures, they already do. The good news of Jesus Kingdom is that its here to stay. And there ain't nothing we can do about it except embrace it.

     

  • At 5:11 PM , Blogger xblairx said...

    i'll second john's statement about the good news.

    i think the consequences are missing out on the kingdom. that would be consequence enough. it seems a little lame as far as consequences go when placed next to eternal torment in heaven. but imagine coming to the end and realizing that you had missed the point your entire life. what would that feel like? i couldn't imagine.

    but, then you might say, well how can you be sad in heaven where all will be joy and no tears and the like? maybe the sadness doesn't have to last? maybe God's forgiveness is that big. maybe some wouldn't see that as much of a consequence if you get to be in heaven and enjoy all the perks without having had to live the life of no drinking, no drugs, no swearing, and no loud rock n roll music that most christians do (i was being facetious for those that didn't catch on). but isn't that justice as we see it? why can't God's justice be greater than our own? after all, as christians, we talk enough about his grace being so much bigger. one thing christians always say is that God is perfectly just and perfectly loving, that he blends the two perfectly. if that's true, then you can't use the definitions for those words that we do because they don't work in that definition. does that make sense?

     

  • At 5:11 PM , Blogger xblairx said...

    by they way, by kingdom, i meant the kingdom on earth...just in case that needed clarification.

     

  • At 7:09 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Dave: a response I needed. I get the feeling we are all seeing that religious answers, turn absolute, have done more to work against the ways of God. Questioning is much more the kind of approach Jesus took.

    John: I seriously could not have said that any better.

    Can I expand on what John started? Apologies if things get a little too calculated or formulated.

    This will be brief and to the point.

    When I think of the good news, I think of the word “restoration” and the picture of Eden. Simply put, this is a place where man and creation (plants & animals) are in perfect harmony, where humans live in perfect harmony, and where humans and God live in perfect harmony. This was the way the Creator wanted His creation to be. It got messed up. The good news is all about restoring this place, through Christ and his example, back to the way it was originally intended to be: restoration between humans and plants, humans and animals, humans and humans, and humans and God.

    Here are the questions I was leading to before. If someone here and now decides to work against this, what are the consequences? Someone decides to pollute the environment, what are the results? Someone tries to enslave a nation, what are the results? War, what are the results? Someone tries to turn themselves into their own god, what are the results? And so on.

    I think we could all agree that each outcome may be unique, because we are still dealing with relationships, not a set formula or eternal label. It makes sense that the torment, gnashing, and other nasty things that seem to be in store for those who oppose God’s ways could be descriptors of what actually happens in the here and now. It happens to everyone from time to time, almost like they are natural outcomes that come and go instead of eternal judgments.

    However, as I read scripture I am constantly reminded of this place being a shadow of the next, a model, a lesser reality that will someday be restored to a greater reality. The parable of the talents seems to give the impression that what happens now has direct relation to what happens later: an extension of now. I think this will be reflected in heaven too. I don’t think it will be a bunch of clouds and singing and fluffy blurred vision. Due to the things I have been studying I am at the point where I understand heaven to be more real, more able to be experienced… Like this earth, but how it was intended to be. Like heaven finally coming to earth and establishing itself here (Romans 8). So, I don’t think heaveners will be floating around all giddy; responsibility may extend on. I still think we will serve God, by existing perfectly, not identically.

    I haven’t thrown out the concept of some kind of natural outcome for those who oppose the way of God; ie. hell if you want to call it. I don’t think it will be fire, torment, or whatever. I don’t know what it will be, but I would expect that it would reflect what is happening here now.

    That is where I’m at now.

    Brian

     

  • At 7:21 PM , Blogger xblairx said...

    thanks for making me think harder on this brian. i like the way you describe heaven. the way you present hell makes a 'hell' (quotations are equal to or greater than my version of a bad pun) of a lot more sense than the way it is currently being presented in christian circles. thanks again for being a part of this discussion. keep it coming if you got more to chew on.

     

  • At 7:22 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Sorry Blair, I typed that out before reading yours. I have no doubt that God could do exactly what you suggested. You are right, it is hard for us to understand the greatness of His love and mercy. Like Dave said, I'm sure we are all just taking stabs in the dark and God will blow us all away.

    However, at this point, I still get the picture from scripture that there are and will always be natural/spiritual (can't separate the two) outcomes for restoration and non-restoration behavior. But far different than eternal torment or eternal euphoria. How's that for a stab?

    It is nice to share and feel safe at the same time.

    Brian

     

  • At 7:55 PM , Blogger dave said...

    seriously brian. you have to read that book by mclaren.

    I love the direction that brian just went there. restoration. redemption. he makes all things new. have we in the past asked these ideas to limit themselves to operating within the boundaries of our own understanding of judgment and justice?

    oh. I'm writing from a cell phone and it's about to die. that's all for now..

     

  • At 9:31 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I am working on "The Heart of Christianity" by Marcus Borg, but "The Secret Message" will be next.

    Took at look at your blog the other day, Dave. I caught myself in la la land, just thinking about what you have gone through, where you are at now, and where you may go. It fires me up.

     

  • At 10:24 AM , Blogger dave said...

    sweet, Brian.

    I really liked one shirt that you wore to Clearview like 30 or 5 years ago. Be the moon, reflect the Son. Then my brother-in-law bought me one.

    I still remember that shirt.

     

  • At 11:41 AM , Blogger dave said...

    i'd just like to say that this conversation has been really refreshing. enough that i finally decided to start "The Last Word and the Word After That". I read the intro last night and it seemed to sum up a lot of the feelings I see expressed here and have felt myself for a long time. I know some of you guys have already read it, but I'm actually really looking forward to it now.

    Even though I'm killing time on the computer right now when the book is in the next room.

    Whatever.

     

  • At 12:25 PM , Blogger xblairx said...

    dave,
    just type it out on here for us all to read...please? the entire book. should only take a couple days.

     

  • At 1:29 PM , Blogger John, Angie and the kiddos said...

    I'm comment #50.

    Yeah I am.

    John

     

  • At 2:50 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I'm workin' on one final thought, but it is my oldest daughter's birthday tonight. If Char catches me on here... Don't go far.

     

  • At 8:13 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    This conversation may be a bit old, but the hour of highway driving each day has kept me thinkin’ about this idea of restoration and its implications for the end of time. Obviously, as Dave said before, we can make a case using scripture for both and probably more theories. Don’t you think that this is, therefore, not a huge issue to God: hell and all that I mean. We know what the huge issues are (love your neighbour kind of thing) which we easily sweep under the rug. What we know we should do, we have most trouble doing. So much has changed since Jesus walked the earth, eh?

    Anyways, if we look forward to the idea that God is all about restoration, it paints an interesting picture for the future. As I grew up, I had the impression that the world was going downhill, to the point where someday there would only be a small group of Christians left, and that God would almost have no choice but to come to the rescue. That there was a big disappointment, and He had no other choice but to bring the last of the Mohicans home.

    The above makes sense, and is a daunting task, if you believe that our role in this world is to primarily restore the spiritual state of this place to the way God intended. Huge… and as we’ve seen over the past few decades, rather discouraging. Trying to change spiritual status in your friends at work, hmmmm… I have actually tried very hard to do this. Won’t go into it now, but trust me – very discouraging and I played right into their expectations of a typical self-righteous Christian.

    What I love about taking responsibility for this creation (human to plant and animal) as it was in the beginning. What I love about loving others and restoring broken relationships. What I love about accepting the restoration offered by Jesus. What I love about all of this is that it seems God is still in love with His creation, still in control of its fate, still working with us, and isn’t forced to foreclose. Plus, it removes the Christian doom and gloom disposition, and the excuse that allows so many to sit content thinking few will be saved anyway, why try. We should just expect that most will reject everything about us.

    I recall just waiting for God to simply return and fix this mess. I can just hear Him say, “How do you think I’m gonna fix this place? You always ask, where are you God? Where are you? Where are my hands and feet? How do you think this place is gonna get put back together?”

    I don’t have any experience with this, but I would assume, like Jesus, that if I spent most of my energy addressing the physical needs of my fellow man, being concerned about those without shelter or water, those in the margins, and being a good steward of this world: the spiritual restoration, which I can’t supply, will make more sense to them.

    I know I haven’t thought all the way through this stuff, but it just kept playing itself over and over in my head this week.

     

  • At 10:41 AM , Blogger dave said...

    Amen, Brian. Amen.

     

  • At 4:59 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    OK Blair, when you told me you had started a serious conversation on your blog, I didn't realize it would take me this long to read all of these infernal comments! Haha, kidding, it was great to read all this. I had a few thoughts and questions...

    1) I really feel that anyone who thinks the issue of heaven/hell is a black and white issue is kidding themselves. I have had a lot of questions about the whole concept, and reading all of this has added to my questions, but in a good way of course! (Thanks to everyone for stimulating our collective thinking - like I said, I don't think this is a topic with an easy answer - in fact, too many people see things in black and whites, but I am getting off topic.)

    2) One of my questions about the mainstream Christian viewpoint of hell is based on how we reconcile a loving God with dolling out an awful eternal suffering punishment to everyone who does not subscribe to the same view. What about people who have never heard of God before? Are they going to hell? In a more grey area, what about people who were religious at one time but have had such bad experiences with Christians that they now avoid the whole religious arena? For example, a few of my gay friends were at one time religious, but had very negative reactions and experiences with people who were professing God's name, even to the point of being told that, as gay people, we were not welcome in God's eyes and were abominable. Well, what a surprise that many of these people now feel excluded, distant from religion, and now practice other forms of spirituality or none at all. In any event, what do we do about the fact that in a lot of situations people have stopped believing in God because of the actions of Christians who said they were representing God as his people?

    3) Related to the point above, what about examples like the Crusades, where we had crazy nuts saying they were acting in God's name and killing people who didn't believe. I can't see God then sending victims, killed by extremists in God's name, to hell for not believing - that just seems twisted to me. Related examples are the treatment Aboriginal people received by Europeans when they came to North America. Specifically, the residential school tragedy has led to so much suffering, to the point that many Aboriginal people today are genuinely leery, afraid, and angry of Christianity for what it did to their families. Decades of abuse on a group of people, often perpetrated by people saying they represented God - goodness me, how does God consider all of this in the scope of a heaven/hell judgment? I don't know, but I just think that true justice would not lead to the kinds of black and white judgments that I often get from mainstream Christianity.

    4) Related to the idea of God dolling out the same awful eternal punishment, I have a hard time in my mind when I think about good people, such as the mother of one of my good friends. She is an amazing person, who volunteers time to help the community around her, donates money to various local and global causes, but for whatever reason, is not a Christian. Is she really going to be in an eternal hell, standing right beside Adolf Hitler? How in blazes (no pun intended) do they both get the same sentence? That is like saying someone who jaywalks should be put in solitary confinement for 25 years to life right next to Paul Bernardo. I have always wondered this, and I just can't make sense of that at all.

    5) Someone above wrote something about how a Christian can continue to do wrong and be forgiven when they repent, and they can in fact be a complete screwup but may continue to repent. God loves everyone, and God forgives. But then how do we reconcile that with a non-Christian who also tries to be a good person but prays to another God or to no God. I just have a problem with the notion that hell is going to be full of all these types of people.

    OK, perhaps I will stop here, I clearly could go on forever. Thanks again everyone for making me think, and thanks Blair for posing the question in the first place and for continuing to make it clear that this is an open forum and that it’s okay for people to voice a diversity ;) of thoughts and opinions.

    I think these are big issues with no easy answers, but I'm glad that I'm not the only one who wonders...

    Have a great day :)

    Matt

     

  • At 7:12 AM , Blogger xblairx said...

    brian,
    man, you nailed it for me. while this conversation has been very meaningful to me in talking out my thoughts and getting feedback, after all this, i have come to the similar conclusion that this issue is not really all that important to God, as far as what we believe about it and all. it seems that this (this being the discussion in general, not just here) discussion can get rather heated sometimes, and that serves no purpose whatsoever to what God wants to accomplish. thanks, Brian, for being a part of this conversation. your last post was music to my ears, and i couldn't have said it any better.

    matt,
    hey man. it's awesome to hear from you. make sure you stop by and voice your opinion more often! my response to everything you said is...yes! i am with you. i don't know how to answer any of those questions except to say that the concept of hell as it is presented in christianity today does not make sense. that's why i do think conversations like this one are so important. some might not think so, and it doesn't always have to be about such serious issues, but if we aren't talking about it and continually striving to get closer to the heart of God, then can we really say we know him?

    thanks again to everyone for joining in. it seems that the discussion is mostly over, but if anyone wants to post more, feel free, as i'll check back to see if anyone feels so inclined. peace and love.

     

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